Curse

Kaida the Heartless · Jul 02, 2007, 03:46 AM // 03:46

I've been hanging out in this pvp arena whenever my faction doesnt seem to be winning in alliance battles and it seems a bit... unfair. Long story short, here are some imbalances I think need to be addressed:

1. Carriers Defense: Recharges too fast. Melee characters cant even touch the turtle, instead, they are just thrown around by this skill. In one instance, I was nearly "defended" to death when the turtle kept teleporting me against the wall he was near (so the skill kept activating). The worst part was that I was just a ranger running by him! :P

2. Refined Amber: Should be worth much more. It looks like it's only worth about twice as much as the regular raw amber, but it is MUCH harder to get and takes much longer to run. Also, consider that it is VERY easy for the attacking team to hold this point.

3. Match Faction: Should grant more total faction. Matches run about as long as an alliance battle yet they return fewer points.

4. Attacker "Turtle" Shrines: Should kill the turtles/warriors that are associated with them when it is captured. This alone would serve to balance out every other gameplay issue (faction is still undetermined).

I would throw out some suggestions for the opposite team... but, for the faction side I have chosen, noone ever seems to play the reverse roles. It seems that Kurzicks are stuck as defenders, while Luxons are stuck as attackers.

Curse You · Jul 02, 2007, 07:43 AM // 07:43

That's funny. I've been playing and watched the Turtle get pummeled by 4+ melee attackers, and the Turtle never used Carrier Defense.

Refined amber is hard to get? Tell that to the Searing Heat elementalists who keep taking the shrine.

I agree with more faction. The 800 now is an improvement, but the small amount you get for a loss, is just annoying.

The Siege Turtle and Luxon Warriors are not part of the command post. If they died when the command post was taken, then the squads already sent in would be killed, making it really annoying for the Luxons. My suggestion, don't attack the command posts and defend Gunther like you're supposed to be doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

It seems that Kurzicks are stuck as defenders, while Luxons are stuck as attackers.

Did you miss the part of the mission where it said "Defend Master Architect Gunther"? The mission is supposed to be Kurzicks defending and Luxons attacking. It is a fort after all.

MithranArkanere · Jul 02, 2007, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Yeah.

Luxons always attacks, Kurcick always defend.
But in Jade Quarry Luxons do not have to defend, they are both making the same.
And Luxons can finish the game even before than 25% of the vngeance of gods's compeltion, but Kurcick always have to wait.

That is just UNFAIR. Why? PvP is balanced so fully defense is impossible, so no one can turn invulnerable, since if you fully concentrate in defense, you can't barely attack. And thus, the turtles alone can turn the tides so Luxons always win.

One Luxon alone can easily any of the NPC Kurcick teams. For a Kurcick is much harder, since the have monks and interrupt rangers.
The teleporters? They are FOR the luxons too. They can use them, and when a kurcick uses them, they are taken directly in front of Siege Turtles.

A good attacks is always the best defense, so one or more of this woul help balance this:
- Make is so taking all shrines and mines defeates the luxons.
- Make it so every four amber given to Gunther adds one pip to the vengeance of gods speed up to a max of 4 pips after 12 chunks.
- Move back the teleporters and/or make them ignore Luxons.
- Add some monks to the kurcick side.
- Make it so Luxons needs one chunk of amber to summon a new turtle team.
- MAke doors targeatable and with health bars (like the Solitary Collossus), so even after killing the NPCs, you have to destroy the door.

Free Runner · Jul 02, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

1. Turtles are already too easy to take out. A single BA Ranger,degen from Necros and Mesmers and SH/SF Eles already take these things down fast.

2. Refined Amber Mine is the final res point for Luxons if the other mines have been taken. This puts them at a disadvantage when it is taken by the Kurzick side. And to top it off the Amber from this mine is worth 4% meaning if a group of Kurzicks start running from that mine the match is gonna be over fast.

3. I agree with more faction. Possibly 1000 for the winning side. Anets intention to stop leechers with less faction for losing didnt really work so perhaps losing faction can be returned to its original amount.

4. Like said they are not part of the Command Post. They are only spawned there and it is pretty easy for Kurzicks to take this shrine due to Luxons focusing on attacking the inner base.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

A good attacks is always the best defense, so one or more of this woul help balance this:

Quote:

- Make is so taking all shrines and mines defeates the luxons.

SH Ele. gg Luxons.

Quote:

-Make it so every four amber given to Gunther adds one pip to the vengeance of gods speed up to a max of 4 pips after 12 chunks.

Possibly. I do think its unfair the Kurzicks have to wait longer for the battle to be over but i suppose its part of the defense.

Quote:

- Move back the teleporters and/or make them ignore Luxons.

The teleporters are fine where they are. I've never seen or had any problems with them. And i'm not exactly sure what advantage other than escaping a load of Kurzicks the Luxon player has in using these teleports. It takes them out of the fort which is basicly the opposite of what they want. And i would say the goal of the Kurzicks is to get the Luxons out of the fort...

Quote:

- Add some monks to the kurcick side.

Not a bad idea. Not at the gate (Bonders ftw) but actually inside the base. I never did understand why the base has only 4 npcs guarding its inner courtyard.

Quote:

-Make it so Luxons needs one chunk of amber to summon a new turtle team.

Not sure why amber would exactly bring back a Turtle. But that basicly gets rid of the respawn time of the Turtles. Thats Advantage Luxons.

Quote:

- MAke doors targeatable and with health bars (like the Solitary Collossus), so even after killing the NPCs, you have to destroy the door.

No reason too. You have 3 npcs (one that basicly excludes melee types from hitting just like the Turtle) on 4 different gates that can be repaired with 1 piece of amber per door.

Before Anet start looking into ways to make the Luxons suffer (which is basicly the idea of your post by the looks of it) maybe they could fix the Luxon side? as it is there are quite a few glitchs for the Luxons (those warriors for instance)

Crimso · Jul 02, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

The improvements I would like to see:

The teleporters should work 2 ways for the kurzicks(unless they are holding a piece of amber) and in 5-10 second intervals(so you don't get teleported tehn straight back).

A "Kurzick gate master" monk outside each inner gate (not like the gatekeepers) that take 1/2 damage from turtle siege attacks.

The turtle crew should respawn every 30 seconds if the luxons have the respective
amber mine(with the purple amber miine its 30 seconds) if they don't it should be 60 seconds instead).

The for every 4 ambers the speed increases by 1 pip is a good idea(let it cap at 3 though or it may go too fast).

Have an effect in the inner courtyard of the fort called "take cover!" kind of like enviromental effects in which The seige turtle damage is halved and all characters and NPC's have 1 pip on health regeneration, as well as this have kurizck monks in the coutyard.

MithranArkanere · Jul 02, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Ah, I forgot! The gates would be invulnerable to ANYTHING but siege attacks. That is, you can kill the elementalist, but Luxons will need ONE hit of the siege turtles to bring down the door once the NPCs guarding it are dead.

Quote:

Make it so Luxons needs one chunk of amber to summon a new turtle team.

Not sure why amber would exactly bring back a Turtle. But that basicly gets rid of the respawn time of the Turtles. Thats Advantage Luxons.

No, no... I mean that the next group will wait until you bring them one Amber chunk.
Both Luxon and kurcick need both Amber and Jadeite to use their magic devices.
You could say that the siege turtles can't fire until you bring them one amber chunk. Once give one piec, they can fire anytime untill killed. Then the new team can't move until you bring them another piece, but it won't spawn sooner.

Series · Jul 02, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

I think the following should be done:

1. Remove the warrior glitch where warriors get frozen. Do this by triggering the respawn on a TURTLE death, not a warrior death. When the turtle respawns, all warriors die and new ones are spawned with the turtle. Glitch=gone.

2. When the turtle dies, add a longer wait for it to respawn. Currently, the glitch is used so much because the turtle squads are so powerful. Alternatively, make it so that turtles only respawn at set times (start of game, 25% warning, 50% warning, 75% warning, 90% warning, and they spawn regardless of if the existing warriors and turtles are alive currently).

Also I agree, refined amber should be worth more. It takes twice as long to run and is much harder to obtain.

Even though people here say that the job of the kurzick's is to defend, the best defense is a good offense. Instead of sitting in your base nice and happy, launching raids on Luxon bases really screws them over.

fleshvirus · Jul 02, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

they should add two Jaggernauts guarding the green gate. One is just plain useless once every goddam party on the luxon side starts raping it.

And i agree to the ''carrier's Defence'' crap wich keeps owning people.

Ensign · Jul 02, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

The way you defend in FA is by killing the turtle squads, capturing the amber mines, and running amber. Those are all aggressive goals.

My list of suggestions for Fort Aspenwood:

Address AFK leeching. That's been wrecking the format since the very beginning.

Fix the number of game-wrecking bugs. Turtle squads getting stuck on closed gates or having warriors bugged often means game over. Gatekeepers being pulled across the map is silly.

Unsuck the faction rewards. The update made things worse.

That's it. The format doesn't need an overhaul. It needs to actually work as intended.

Kaida the Heartless · Jul 02, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

I don't know... it just seems that the win to lose ratio for kurzicks on that map is 1:4. It's terrible. Something needs to be done. Apparently it's too well stacked in the favor of luxons.

A GREAT help would be the ability to run amber through a gate without having to open it. Gawd that's just annoying.

Traveller · Jul 02, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

First and foremost: do something about leechers. This thing alone is the first reason Aspenwood is a mess. The new update on faction rewards, in effect, leads to more quitting, when people feel they can't be arsed to fight with bunch of leechers and have no chance of winning.

The reward for losing needs to be either ZERO or almost as good as for winning. No alternatives.

Fix also the pathing problems for various NPC's.

Kaida the Heartless · Jul 02, 2007, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Also, get more people into the quarry, dont care how. These places are empty and I would like to attack for once! :P

MithranArkanere · Jul 02, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quarry is empty because Aspenwood is 'broken'. Luxons will go where they'll likely win.

Around 75..90% of the times Luxons win in Aspenwood.
And don't say it's because Luxons suck. Beucause I've been in both sides, and it's always the same.

Kool Pajamas · Jul 02, 2007, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The way you defend in FA is by killing the turtle squads, capturing the amber mines, and running amber. Those are all aggressive goals.

My list of suggestions for Fort Aspenwood:

Address AFK leeching. That's been wrecking the format since the very beginning.

Fix the number of game-wrecking bugs. Turtle squads getting stuck on closed gates or having warriors bugged often means game over. Gatekeepers being pulled across the map is silly.

Unsuck the faction rewards. The update made things worse.

That's it. The format doesn't need an overhaul. It needs to actually work as intended.

Yes but still the luxons have an easier time winning than the kurzick. Its much much easier for a half decent luxon team to win than it is for a half decent kurzick team. I play both sides of it.

The gatekeepers should have some better healing. Make one prot the other heal.

Put 2 juggernauts at the gate. 1 for each turtle that comes in.

Taking the green mine is not the problem, its running from it once you get the amber. Double points is not enough to make it worth it. So you grab the refined amber, you get halfway to the gate and some SP sin jumps you or a ranger, mesmer, necro, or whoever degens you to death while running back. Its too easy(to die). Or while running back the turtle 1 hit kills you. I swear it hits for more damage than it says. I've been at 555 health and the turtle one shot kills me. Its only supposed to do 500 damage total, 250 to the target, 250 to nearby(?) foes yet I'm insta-killed. Refined amber needs to be at least 4 times normal amber for all the trouble. Also would speed up the game if all the non leecher luxons leave.

Turtles should respawn slower. Kurzicks have to use amber to fix gates yet luxons get auto rez turtles.

Be able to fix gates while under attack. Once luxons get in the gate, fixing them is nearly impossible. At the very least allow Gunther to be able to fix the green gate. If the gatekeepers both die(because they both suck horribly at keeping themselves alive) you cant fix any gates.

I might also suggest some extra NPCs on the kurzick side to help defend but then it might sway to Kurzick's favor.

But most importantly fix the bugs/exploits on both sides.

Kaida the Heartless · Jul 03, 2007, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Okay. More suggestions:

1. For the Kurzick mines, remove the dual rits. They both use the same spirits and they override each other.

2. Remove the respawn timers on the mines closest to the Kurzick castle or slow down the respawn timer for luxons. Ever try to cap one of those shrines as anything but an ele? It's lovely to continuously have to kill the same person because they respawn every 10 seconds.

3. Increase Player IQ. Har har.

/agree with the above.

Oh, and why don't Kurzicks have any offensive maps? How about switching the positions every week/month.

Curse You · Jul 03, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Well, it seems obvious that there is a majority of Kurzick players in this thread. Most likely reasons: there are more Kurzick players or Kurzick players are here because they can't win FA.

The fact of the matter is, the map is balanced (as much as you guys hate to admit). The only problem is, people don't get how to play it.

If a Kurzick team simply has 6 people run amber, and the other 2 delay the Luxons, they can win easily. You'd be surprised how much damage those Kurzick Elementalists can do to a squad when they keep being respawned every minute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

I don't know... it just seems that the win to lose ratio for kurzicks on that map is 1:4. It's terrible. Something needs to be done. Apparently it's too well stacked in the favor of luxons.

A GREAT help would be the ability to run amber through a gate without having to open it. Gawd that's just annoying.

You forget to factor in that the average Kurzick player seems to think that their Assassin makes for an excellent defender. Frankly, I don't see why anyone goes as anything except Monk, Ranger, Necromancer or Elementalist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Quarry is empty because Aspenwood is 'broken'. Luxons will go where they'll likely win.

Around 75..90% of the times Luxons win in Aspenwood.
And don't say it's because Luxons suck. Beucause I've been in both sides, and it's always the same.

Look at my previous reply. It's simply because using a build to just pummel things is so much easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Okay. More suggestions:

1. For the Kurzick mines, remove the dual rits. They both use the same spirits and they override each other.

2. Remove the respawn timers on the mines closest to the Kurzick castle or slow down the respawn timer for luxons. Ever try to cap one of those shrines as anything but an ele? It's lovely to continuously have to kill the same person because they respawn every 10 seconds.

3. Increase Player IQ. Har har.

/agree with the above.

Oh, and why don't Kurzicks have any offensive maps? How about switching the positions every week/month.

1. Frankly, the Ritualists are more powerful than the dumb Rangers the Luxons get.

2. Maybe you shouldn't be killing people when they're right next to their spawn point. Take the shrine, then kill them. If you can't tank the person, then maybe you should get moving.

Kurzicks are the Tree-hugging, singing house dwellers. Luxons are the nomadic tribes who ride around on oversized seafood. The map represents both cultures quite well.

Kool Pajamas · Jul 03, 2007, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Yes if people knew how to play the maps properly it may be a different story. However many people don't seem to know how to play it properly. And on the kurzick side it hurts MUCH more. On luxon side all you have to know is to kill and grab the turtles when they respawn. Kurzick side you have to know how to run amber (which for some reason is extremely hard for some/many people to grasp) and defend the base. If you aren't running you are usually healing which is another thing which takes skill to do.

And in balancing a random map like this you have to take into account the IQ of the average person playing it. And in this case its about a 5, so it should be balanced accordingly.

Alex The Noble · Jul 03, 2007, 11:22 AM // 11:22

I think that they made the faction lower because alliance battles deside which faction owns which land. With less people abing the tides will turn little.

Having seige turtles having always to break the doors will make it immposible for the luxons if there turle died but the lux warriors are spiked. Meaning the orange or purple team wont res. Adn with out a turtle how would u break it open. If this was implied they would have to make it that the walls couldnt be repaired but thats stupid to.

My ideas:

-Give even faction to ab
-playing fort aspenwood and jade quarry, turns the tide of thw world war line on the map.
-More juggaunuats because some times they wander out of the forts base

Kaida the Heartless · Jul 03, 2007, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Kurzicks are the Tree-hugging, singing house dwellers. Luxons are the nomadic tribes who ride around on oversized seafood. The map represents both cultures quite well.

Good point.

At the same time, I play a ranger, one of the classes you suggest should be brought, and it's quite difficult to capture some of the shrines when your damage comes from degeneration. It seems I spend more time interupting/killing the respawning hex stack necro then I do degening the NPCs.

I also agree with the IQ statement above. I've raged more at this single map than any other instances of guildwars combined. It's frustrating. You cannot ask for cooperation/coordination when the teams are randomly assembled. The age group is also a slight bit less than what I would like it to be as well, I would imagine.

MithranArkanere · Jul 04, 2007, 01:23 PM // 13:23

I think making some things invulnerable to anything but Turtle sieges would be enough for now, like mnaking doors require une Siege attack to be finally broken after killing the NPCs guarding it.

That way Luxons could not just send a turtle in one side and go around killing kurcicks triying to get amber.